Feb 23 2009
You all just need to chill out and give it a chance!
It is starting already. The disenchantment of Obama. The stock market sank to its lowest levels since 1997. I expected those idiots on the right to start in on Obama - but - now there are people on our side beginning to blame him too? C’mon people. Give it a rest. You voted for change. You willingly walked in to that booth and pulled the lever for Obama and change.
You know - change doesn’t happen over night after eight years of severe damage to this country. Obama just signed that bill in to law last week. Money is just now beginning to flow to the states to get things going. Can you give it a rest for a while?
I’m beginning to understand the phrase the “right” use all the time “drive-by media.” It appears that a lot of you people out there are just too impatient and are only listening to the sound bites. You know - even George Bush (ptew) said that the war on terror was going to be long and that the war won’t be won over night. Well - the same thing goes for this war on recession. It is going to take time to pull this thing off.
I’m just asking you all - have confidence in Obama - after all - you voted for him overwhelmingly. Let’s be the one’s to turn to those Republicans in the near future and say “See, I told you so.” Your negativity will lead to self-fulfilling prophecy.
Chill out!
Thanks,
Sarah
I did not vote for Obama, because I want change. The Democratic Party is not the source of change. People can chill out all they want. Change aint coming. If people wanted change they should not have voted for a Democrat or a Republican. The party system is at the core of the problem it is not the solution. It’s not a matter of being patient its business as usual. An Attorney General who doesn’t want to prosecute war crimes and neither does Obama for that matter, a DNI who was complicit in massacres in E. Timor and an escalation of war in which we are fighting people we formerly armed. This is NOT change it’s more of the SAME.
You hit the nail on the head. Thank you.
Hi Newswriter - I’m not so sure about that. It seems to me that the market has always been tied in to the activities of government throughout history. Sure, I get the idea that it’s a bunch of rich people getting antsy - but - it also includes people like me with a 401k and the company that manages that 401k. I’m just asking people to back off a little and give the man some breathing room.
dsent - sounds like we might be a little upset? BTW - what is a DNI?
ndfenceofobama - looks like we’re of like minds! My pleasure.
Yeah, Sarah, the market includes people like us, but we’re not the ones who make it go up or down — we’re the ones who get screwed when the rich gamblers and sophomoric investors get freaked.
But you’re definitely right that the left oughta chill a little. Not completely — because we do need to counter the crap from the right.
And DNI is director of national intelligence.
The party system isn’t the problem, either, although it does make it difficult to affect actual change. But I just bet folks like Lily Ledbetter and about 11 million formerly uninsurable children wouldn’t agree with dsent that Obama hasn’t brought any change.
Sure there’s parts of this administration that are too close to the previous for my tastes — Timothy Geithner being a prime example. But sheesh, it’s night and day.
Yea Sarah,
A bit upset, but have been since I started educating myself on Washingtons policies. I am surrounded by people who are satisfied with a scrap from the table when they deserve to be fed a meal.
Newswriter. “formerly uninsurable children”… How about rather than insuring poor children, providing health care to all our citizens. This is the most powerful industrialized nation the world has ever seen. Why should we be kicking down money to insurance companys to provide health care to children? To hell with insurance companys. Furthermore, it is the party system that controls the national agenda and selects who we get to vote for, and you said yourself “there are parts of this administration that are to close to the previous for for” your tastes. So our options were extending the republican control or accepting minor changes from the Democrats. And those 11 million children were NOT uninsurable they just didn’t have insurance, anyone with the money could have purchased it for them. Obama has NOT mandated health care for all our citizens and anything short of that is unacceptable.
“Pay no attention to the stock market.”
Typical Kool-Aid drinker. When the stock market started down in September, it was evidence that Bush had ruined the economy and that’s why we should all vote for Comrade Obama.
The stock market has tanked worse since The Messiah took over, and now it’s “[p]ay no attention to the stock market.”
I’d say it’s intellectual dishonesty, but that would imply intellect.
csc5502, it is intellectual dishonesty and to sugest that Obama is not intellegent is to be ignorant. He is damn sure intellegent, I dont agree with his policys but he is no idiot, criminal yes, idiot no friggin way. People would do well to be less concerned with personal attacks and more focused on the ineffectual policys that are being put forward. “comrade Obama” what a load of crap sugesting that Obama is a communist shows that either you know nothing about communism or you are being intellectualy dishonest yourself, maybe both.
dsent - I get the idea of providing health insurance to the uninsured does nothing really but help the insurance companies make more money off the deal. But, given the way our government has screwed up the Medicare and Medicaid systems I’m not entirely sure I would even want to see a nationalized health care system. What I see is there needs to be an overhaul of health care system itself to provide access to the medical care that everyone needs. That does not need to be through insurance. Every county already has a public health department that provides basic care for free to the needy. Maybe they could just build on that system.
Also - I would have to commend you on the way you handled csc5502 there. No need for me say anything else there.
Sarah,
I don’t think government has screwed up health care. I think their lack of oversight is consequential but, insurance companies and incestuous relations between doctors and clinical laboratories have caused much of the harm. But the free ride to over charge Medicare and Medicaid hasn’t helped. I think there is some misunderstanding of my meaning. I would suggest democratizing health care. Democratization of essential industries is in the best interest of us all. (Well not the very wealthy because they are profiting on things as they are) Why should insurance company’s or stock holders make money because we need electricity, health care or phone service. If most everyone is using a basic service/industry then why not control that service/industry democratically. Not government control but control democratically from within the industry. Daniel De Leon’s ideas have yet to be tried in any industrialized nation of the world. I’m not saying they might not need some tweaking but we would do well to be instructed by his ideas.
dsent - I will have to check that out. I don’t understand what you mean by democratizing health care. Is that the same as socialized medicine? I haven’t heard of Daniel De Leon either. You are definitely educating me here. I knew I had some smart commentors out there!
Sarah,
I would say yes that is truely socializing medicine. To democratize an industry is to give those who work in the industry democratic control. Those who do a job usually know how to do it best and when they are left to their own devices in the absence of say… Insurance company, or corporate oversight the job will be done more efficently. The hands that turn the crank are the hands who know best how the crank turns.
“The hands that turn the crank are the hands who know best how the crank turns.”
Who do expect to pay for the building of the crank in the first place?
To what end should the crank be turned?
For the betterment of society in general, or for the improvement of the individual workers condition at the expense of any or all others?
Should the crank be turned regardless of whether there is need to turn it or not?
There will not be a society where the worker will decide what will be produced or in what quantity or to what end. In the absence of business people to guide a business, government will step into the void.
When it does, the “evil rich” will pack up their wealth and move it elsewhere, because money has no national pride and does not need a visa to work in another country where it is more welcome.
That President Obama is an intelligent man is beyond contestation, however his wisdom and judgement is questionable. There is no reason to believe that his economic plan will work. Its been tried before, and has never worked, why should it work now?
Main stream media pundits are for the most part willing to cut him huge swaths of slack since spending your way to prosperity has not been tried on such a massive scale before. Additionally, they are by and large in alignment with his politics.
The great part of the situation is that everyone will get to see first hand, up close and personal, what happens when you try to spend your way out of a recession by using wealth that has yet to be created.
Add to this the incredible increase in the money supply (a fiat currency), increased taxation and overseas lenders increasingly unwilling to lend the USA more money.
America is turning its back on the wealth creators and producers of the country by moving hard left politically at a time when they are needed the most. But maybe it is time for America to finally learn the lessons of socialism first hand.
Only then will socialism be relegated to the dust bin of history, and those interested in developing a new philosophy will have an audience.
Or maybe America will have run out of the entrepreneurial spirit and rugged individualism that made it the envy of the world. What do I know? Who is John Galt?
Hi fairwarning - thank you for such a lengthy and detailed response. I can see some of what you are talking about. But, I believe this country is ready for some “democratically” controlled labor policies. I think part of what dsent has to say makes a lot of sense. That Solar Panel plant that Obama signed the stimulus bill is one of those type of employers. I have a feeling we are going to see more of that type of employer crop up over the next four years as capitalism sure hasn’t worked for us - has it.
fairwarning,
fairwarning,
I am flattered by your verbose response. Allow me to retort.
Who do I expect to pay for the building of the crank? The same workers who’s labor generated the wealth to build the thing in the first place.
To what end should the crank be turned? Well nothing but to its purpose of course, and in the case of health care which is what was being discussed, for the betterment of patients obviously.
Should the crank be turned? Again the discourse was about health care and I most definitely think it’s beneficial to the entire society to have affordable health care.
I never said anything about workers deciding what will be produced, so you are way off topic. And the comment “the “evil rich” will pack up their wealth and move it elsewhere” WTF? “evil rich” where do you get crap like that? Yes I know money has no national allegiance. But I am not the least bit afraid that providing a democratic health care system would mean all the rich people would leave the country.
Now as far as what Obama is doing I never said a word in support of Obama so that’s a straight up straw man argument fallacy but then your entire reply was wrought with fallacy’s.
As far as America “turning its back on the wealth creators and producers of the country by moving hard left”… Utter nonsense, The workers create all the wealth, capital creates nothing, and this move to the left is simply more nonsensical babble, as are the last 3 paragraphs of your reply. Socialism has not been tried ergo for you to wax righteous about its lessons is meaningless, until something is tried the lessons have no way to be known let alone learned.
Do understand that your opening 4 questions were quite ill conceived, I made an analogy and you based your questions entirely on that analogy not on what was actually being discussed thereby obfuscating the issue completely. But thanx for playing.
Sarah
Capitalism has worked everywhere it has been allowed to work. What we have seen in at least the last 13 years is not capitalism, but a bastardization of it. Government interference will always cause this to the degree that it interferes. The interference in this case is substantial, especially in the banking sector (no money down no qualifying ninja loans. Yikes). We now have the inevitable result. Thank you congressman Barney Frank and Senator Chris Dodd, with an assist from President Clinton.
In its basic terms, it is the free exchange of capital between those willing and able to produce goods and services to those willing and able to purchase without government interference. That does not mean the government has no regulatory role, but it has no role in controlling the economy. Government has an extremely poor record of picking winners and losers in an economy.
Capitalism is self correcting. When it is not interfered with, markets will automatically correct themselves. When they are not allowed to correct due to direct government intervention (artificially low interest rates or massive stimulus spending are two examples) we simply prolong the pain and intensify it.
The laws of economics cannot be altered. The markets will always seek to correct themselves. That is what is being witnessed currently.
As for the solar plants mentioned, I have no specific knowledge of them. I do have specific knowledge of solar energy generation however. Wind power as well. I was studying and using alternative energy long before it was cool. I even spent almost 3 years totally off the grid just to prove I could.
If the objective is research for the sake of research into alternative energy, the money spent may have some use in the decades to come. If the objective is to eliminate or even reduce in a meaningful way America’s dependence on foreign oil or the use of coal generating stations, you will be disappointed.
Instead of a green power generating industry powering America, your more likely to find politicians fighting over having their pet projects in their districts funded. Money will be dumped into projects for the sake of spending the money, not because the proponents believe the project makes sense. If it buys them votes, they will try to fund it.
Private investors like Billionaire T. Boone Pickens advocate for wind power, but the dirty little secret is that he is mostly after the massive government subsidy available for every turbine he sets up, on land owned by one of his holding companies and leased to his wind power company (the lease also subsidized). Without the massive subsidies, he would have little if any interest.
I have no doubt we will see more “democratically controlled labor policies” in the next little while. People are scared and willing to give most anything a try if it will ease the pain. They see the robber barons on Wall Street getting rich while they lose their retirement savings. Nobody is watching out for the folks.
The problem is the majority of people have little or erroneous knowledge of economics. They can’t see what’s coming at them because they never learned what to look for. It makes them vulnerable.
If you want to see the results of this kind of labor policy, take a look at the steel industry in Pittsburgh. What steel industry in Pittsburgh, you ask? Exactly! Many businesses that can will move out, those that cannot move, like health care, will be rationed. Enjoy that 8 month wait for an MRI.
You will begin to hear the term “Hallway Medicine.” Beds will be closed to save money which will force patients into the halls to wait for treatment. That one is a joy as well.
Just be very careful what you wish for. Always allow for the unintended consequences.
As for dsent, condescension is no argument. It is always a sign of weakness.
I painted with too wide a brush. I did not know your level of knowledge of economic theory.
Your lack of knowledge of economics is substantial, but not irreversible. “The workers create all the wealth, capital creates nothing…”
The creative mind invests capital in order for a good or service to be created. It is only at this point that workers even enter the picture.
No capital, no job. No job, no worker is needed.
If the workers as a collective takes control of the means of production, there is no creative mind to focus the capital. Capital dries up for lack of return on its investment. No capital, no job. No job, no worker needed.
When a capitalist system is abandoned in favor of a socialist system, which is the path the President is moving towards, it must inevitably fail because it “runs out of other people’s money” (Lady Margaret Thatcher). The EU is beginning to understand this.
Find a successful business person and ask to work for them for awhile for free, in exchange for being able to sit in on some business meetings. It will be an eye opening experience for you to see how a business runs. The knowledge gained if you give it an honest try will change your life and alter your entire world view.
As for government controlled health care, I know it intimately. I live in a country with socialized medicine. Remember what I said about being careful what you wish for.
A good exercise to do is to write down what the conditions would have to be for an admission that the road now being embarked upon is the wrong one. Save what you write down and review in 2 years.
I’ll stop raining on everyone’s parade now. This blog was inspired by President Obama, and I will not use anymore to argue against his views. I hope his economic plan works. I would make me wealthy, and wealth allows freedom. But I have been in the game too long to let myself believe his economic plan could work. I will keep my capital out of the USA, as are an increasing number of my clients.
Maybe President Obama will be able to alter the laws of economics and make socialism work. First time for everything.
But what do I know? Who is John Galt?
Hehehe so many words so little to say